|
|
Post by dellicious on Mar 27, 2010 4:12:46 GMT -5
Why am I agreeing for the sake of agreeing? You don't even make an argument for why my comment is not "individualistic" enough for you. All you're doing is making inflammatory remarks. All I was doing was commenting on these (incredibly substantial) posts that you made on the subject: and the air tastes pretty stale to me. those are the kinds of responses i get from the average person when making the kind of statement jay just made. but whatever floats yer boat. Sweetheart? Go fuck yourself. Seriously. I don't know you. Would you have called me sweetheart if I put my gender down as male? Thanks but I just fucked myself this morning. And I hate to break it to you, but I didn't even look at which bullshit option you decided to choose as your gender, cupcake. |
|
|
|
Post by xmackx on Mar 27, 2010 10:17:48 GMT -5
couple things:
what is it that any of us are doing that is actually changing or challenging anything? seriously, if you're doing something that's making some break-through, then i'd love to know! i hate it the way you do, jay--thing is, this whole thing doesn't get ripped apart based on what emotions we have toward it. we don't have the agency to do anything except thinking really hard and coming up with ideas that can't be tried and practiced.
sure, apathy--whatever. that's not really the case. there's a difference between general apathy and desiring something different and it not actually being able to happen! we can't wish changes, we can't anger our changes into effect. again, seemingly we have no agency. not to mention, our desires have been carefully crafted for us since the day we were born. we can only desire what we know, and that's all of this--everything. i desire the end, outside of that--who knows what's there?
|
|
|
|
Post by wolf on Mar 27, 2010 14:35:14 GMT -5
Why am I agreeing for the sake of agreeing? You don't even make an argument for why my comment is not "individualistic" enough for you. All you're doing is making inflammatory remarks. All I was doing was commenting on these (incredibly substantial) posts that you made on the subject: and Sweetheart? Go fuck yourself. Seriously. I don't know you. Would you have called me sweetheart if I put my gender down as male? Thanks but I just fucked myself this morning. And I hate to break it to you, but I didn't even look at which bullshit option you decided to choose as your gender, cupcake. I had forgotten what it was like to have anonymous conversations online. People can say all the fucked up remarks they want with no fear of physical retaliation. Needless to say if you called me cupcake and sweetheart to my face during an argument I would not have it. Or maybe I do need to say that. Maybe you still don't get it. There is always the group of people that turn these debates into games of passive aggressive remarks, with neither side taking responsibility for what they say, insisting nothing offensive was said and playing dumb when called out. It makes me upset and sad to find it on this particular message board however. This shit is trite. If you're going to insult me don't be a coward about it. Step up and take responsibility for your words. If you don't understand how offensive calling someone you don't know "cupcake" and "sweetheart" during an argument is, especially when I have never met you and have a female sign under my name, then take some time to think about the words you are using. Even regardless of gender they are condescending and cheap. Here's some food for thought I was reading in a feminist article earlier: You came out and made a claim that roaringinside's comment was as "ridiculous" as Robertson's claiming that Haiti was hit by an earthquake because they were "unable to follow Christ with all their hearts." You had no argument to support this claim. It was offensive. I followed along and disagreed with you. I wrote a sentence saying so. You then were rude to other people who (politely I might add) argued against your ridiculous point. I didn't humor you in this way because frankly, you didn't seem like you would listen to any response that didn't back your claim up. Someone said your point was refreshing, I said it was old. Then you said I was disagreeing for the sake of it, was not "individualistic" enough for you, and called me sweetheart. I don't give a shit about being the first two remarks you made because I knew they were wrong. I don't give a shit about your opinions, I've heard them before. But your word choice is fucked up and I'm calling you out on it, not just because it pissed me off, but because I hope and argue that kind of sexist behavior should not be tolerated here. To be honest, my guess is that you always knew it was offensive and that's why you said it. I've said too much to you. You seem like a black hole that will keep on taking and talking without thinking and for the sole purpose of being "right". I've stated my claim and I'm done. |
|
|
|
Post by Alex on Mar 27, 2010 15:08:06 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by xmackx on Mar 27, 2010 16:55:59 GMT -5
come on, really now? calling someone cupcake and sweetheart is sexist? seriously? because you decided to put female as your gender, when you didn't even have to put ANYTHING. i don't understand what is so subversive about picking the opposite gender to represent you on some goofy messageboard. not to mention, the kid said (and you can believe them or not, i'm not sure there's much reason not to since you don't know them either) that they didn't even look at this stupid part of the messageboard. sure, they were doing it to get a rise out of you (and they did) in a condescending way (which isn't usually conducive to good arguing) but again, i don't think to be sexist.
also, this kind of (not in so many words) i'll beat you up if you call me sweetheart or cupcake is absurd. are you looking for some sort of outlet for your aggression that you can't get somewhere else?
also, with that quote you posted about that kid wanting to be called "cara" or whatever. calling that person their name doesn't do anything to end the roles that exist for that person (boss, customer and whatever else they stated) so they're trying to create something "liberating" when in all actuality it doesn't matter if they're called "cara" or not as long as they assume the role they're told.
|
|
|
|
Post by dellicious on Mar 27, 2010 18:45:46 GMT -5
we don't have the agency to do anything except thinking really hard and coming up with ideas that can't be tried and practiced. Agreed. sure, apathy--whatever. that's not really the case. there's a difference between general apathy and desiring something different and it not actually being able to happen! I'm not even sure I desire something different. I did for a very long time, but after all is said and done I still do what I want when I want without picking apart my every action. I'm pretty sure we all do, whether we'll admit it or not. I'm not lying to myself any longer -- I have no interest in changing the world. I'd rather learn the world and just live among it's peaks and valleys. |
|
|
|
Post by xmackx on Mar 27, 2010 22:30:05 GMT -5
i don't think i'm out to change the world either, i'm out to change the way i feel and seemingly i don't feel well the way things are right now. i think learning the world and trying to experiment with the way it works and coming to conclusions is a good thing to do. i think more often than not (meaning always so far) that ends in exactly what you said "living in the peaks and valleys" because we can't actually do anything about anything at all.
|
|
|
|
Post by dellicious on Mar 27, 2010 23:49:13 GMT -5
i don't think i'm out to change the world either, i'm out to change the way i feel and seemingly i don't feel well the way things are right now. i think learning the world and trying to experiment with the way it works and coming to conclusions is a good thing to do. i think more often than not (meaning always so far) that ends in exactly what you said "living in the peaks and valleys" because we can't actually do anything about anything at all. Thank you. And wolf, I am far from sexist, and for you to try and pull that out of me on here from the words I've said, that's just craziness. I do think it's funny to get a rise out of people, especially those as sensitive as you. So thank you for awarding me that. You are the only one who applied those silly words to a certain sex. So yes, you're right -- you HAVE said too much. |
|
alexia
introduce yourself!
Posts: 10 
|
Post by alexia on Mar 28, 2010 0:07:17 GMT -5
come on, really now? calling someone cupcake and sweetheart is sexist? seriously? because you decided to put female as your gender, when you didn't even have to put ANYTHING. i don't understand what is so subversive about picking the opposite gender to represent you on some goofy messageboard. not to mention, the kid said (and you can believe them or not, i'm not sure there's much reason not to since you don't know them either) that they didn't even look at this stupid part of the messageboard. sure, they were doing it to get a rise out of you (and they did) in a condescending way (which isn't usually conducive to good arguing) but again, i don't think to be sexist. i'm gonna step in here and say that yeah, using jibes like "cupcake" and "sweetheart" passive aggressively does have sexist overtones. we can pretend to innocently deny it, but we all know the connotations: patronizing, demeaning, aggressive. i dont think i need to remind people of the importance of respectful language. but especially on message-boards, where anonymity easily lends itself to stupid aggression. my female-bodied friends and i have often felt marginalized by the macho attitudes on other message-boards. this board feels like a relatively safe-r space , im hopin people are down to make it that way |
|
|
|
Post by dellicious on Mar 28, 2010 0:26:07 GMT -5
i'm gonna step in here and say that yeah, using jibes like "cupcake" and "sweetheart" passive aggressively does have sexist overtones. we can pretend to innocently deny it, but we all know the connotations: patronizing, demeaning, aggressive. i dont think i need to remind people of the importance of respectful language. but especially on message-boards, where anonymity easily lends itself to stupid aggression. my female-bodied friends and i have often felt marginalized by the macho attitudes on other message-boards. this board feels like a relatively safe-r space , im hopin people are down to make it that way I agree with you that sometimes it's hard to interpret the language being used on message boards, but it's still delusive to think the words I used have gender-specific undertones. It's also crap to think that people should speak any other way the way they truly feel. I'm not going to change my language just because I'm in the presence of the "female-bodied". If you can't deal with the attitudes of people, find another message board. I have a vagina, but that doesn't mean I need a crutch, or a god damn safe place. |
|
alexia
introduce yourself!
Posts: 10
|
Post by alexia on Mar 28, 2010 0:57:34 GMT -5
I agree with you that sometimes it's hard to interpret the language being used on message boards, but it's still delusive to think the words I used have gender-specific undertones. It's also crap to think that people should speak any other way the way they truly feel. I'm not going to change my language just because I'm in the presence of the "female-bodied". If you can't deal with the attitudes of people, find another message board. I have a vagina, but that doesn't mean I need a crutch, or a god damn safe place. i'm pretty happy for you if you really are not phased by sexist language. seriously, if you can shake if off that easily, good for you. i don't think it's asking too much of you to be mildly sensitive to other people's experiences. or at the very least, to refrain from insulting them as needing "a crutch" or "a god damn safe place". many people of all identities seek these kind of respectful environments because, in case you aren't aware, sexism is institutionalized in our culture and it affects people in a spectrum of ways. i guess youre pretty lucky if your experience hasn't been as harmful as others'. you don't have to change your language. hell, you can do whatever you want. if it means perpetuating oppressive attitudes, go for it, if that's your kinda thing. |
|
|
|
Post by dellicious on Mar 28, 2010 1:55:23 GMT -5
i'm pretty happy for you if you really are not phased by sexist language. seriously, if you can shake if off that easily, good for you. i don't think it's asking too much of you to be mildly sensitive to other people's experiences. or at the very least, to refrain from insulting them as needing "a crutch" or "a god damn safe place". many people of all identities seek these kind of respectful environments because, in case you aren't aware, sexism is institutionalized in our culture and it affects people in a spectrum of ways. i guess youre pretty lucky if your experience hasn't been as harmful as others'. you don't have to change your language. hell, you can do whatever you want. if it means perpetuating oppressive attitudes, go for it, if that's your kinda thing. All I was saying is that from my experience as female, I do not expect people to go easy on me or treat me differently. No where did I say I am not phased by sexist language. I understand that we live in a sexist culture.. but, snooze. All of you keep saying I'm so presumptuous, but it was you who assumed that I haven't been through anything oppressive enough to make me think and act a certain way. If anything, the things I've gone through have given me a tougher exterior and has given me the attitude you all seem to hate me for. You assumed way more than I did. I'm also not saying that we lack agency. I'm saying that if we continue to expect certain behaviors from people just because of our personal experiences, we are going to be let down every time. People are not nice. Legitimately stand up for yourself instead of simply saying (in one way or another) "you're mean." Although all of this may be true, it's such a beaten to death argument. If you want to be looked at a certain way, there should be no stopping you. Learn to shake shit off instead of complaining that no one will cut you a break. I shouldn't have to introduce myself. I thought the main point of this forum was to discuss and dispute things. If you guys just use it to meaninglessly chit chat then I would be more than happy to leave you alone. I just thought it would be something different, but obviously everyone here is too comfortable. |
|
|
|
Post by xmackx on Mar 28, 2010 8:34:02 GMT -5
i don't understand what is so subversive about picking the opposite gender to represent you on some goofy messageboard. way to assume that everyone here identifies as the gender they were assigned to. there is no opposite gender, and some of us with penises identify as wimmin, femme, feminine, or something else that falls within the wide spectrum of what is "female." trans people have to put up with not having their gender identity validated in the world at large, and seeing this bullshit in these scenes makes me want to vomit. sure, i guess there is a subtle assumption that the people here identify as the gender they were assigned, but either way that brings up a different issue. why would you shed one assigned gender for another? why wouldn't you just prefer to have NO gender preference? in much smaller terms, you don't need to pick a gender at all on these messageboards--you can just leave it out. why do the people pick the ones they do? does sambam identify as male? do you (roaringinside) identify as female? and what do those identifications contribute to subversive tendencies? what i'm trying to say is that i'm unhappy identifying with anything at all. if i am male-bodied, but identify as female...then what does that actually mean? does it mean that i feel like a female (whatever that means) or does it mean that i am what a female (stereotypically) is? do i do "female" things? i think that these definitions bring up highly problematic issues. |
|
alexia
introduce yourself!
Posts: 10
|
Post by alexia on Mar 28, 2010 8:44:07 GMT -5
All I was saying is that from my experience as female, I do not expect people to go easy on me or treat me differently. No where did I say I am not phased by sexist language. I understand that we live in a sexist culture.. but, snooze. All of you keep saying I'm so presumptuous, but it was you who assumed that I haven't been through anything oppressive enough to make me think and act a certain way. If anything, the things I've gone through have given me a tougher exterior and has given me the attitude you all seem to hate me for. You assumed way more than I did. I'm also not saying that we lack agency. I'm saying that if we continue to expect certain behaviors from people just because of our personal experiences, we are going to be let down every time. People are not nice. Legitimately stand up for yourself instead of simply saying (in one way or another) "you're mean." Although all of this may be true, it's such a beaten to death argument. If you want to be looked at a certain way, there should be no stopping you. Learn to shake shit off instead of complaining that no one will cut you a break. I shouldn't have to introduce myself. I thought the main point of this forum was to discuss and dispute things. If you guys just use it to meaninglessly chit chat then I would be more than happy to leave you alone. I just thought it would be something different, but obviously everyone here is too comfortable. i'm sorry if i made a generalized assumption about your experience. that's why i used "if", but i understand if that was still lame. the thing is, you not only made generalized assumptions about others' experiences, you insulted them as needing "a crutch or a goddamn safe space" and i don't think that's okay. i do, and others do, continue to expect certain -- more respectful -- behaviors from people, and i am NOT let down every time. people CAN be nice. i think one way to legitimately stand up for myself is to call people out when they have a shitty attitude. yeah, this has gotten kinda silly and gone a little far -- thats what tends to happen on messageboards. i think its legitimate discussin and disputin. im thinking about things differently from what you said. nobody really wants to rehash the whole "need for a respectful space" thing. it is kind of a dead horse, not because it's irrelevant but because it shouldnt be a question anymore. |
|
|
|
Post by xmackx on Mar 28, 2010 9:09:54 GMT -5
alexia, i think you're backing off in your argument because dellicious has stated that they are female. i wonder if you would have been as quick to water down your arguments had they said they were male. i understand i'm making some assumptions here (i dont know you at all, and your argumentative tendencies) it was just something that struck me in your responses. now that you know that dellicious is a female, and they have experience living as a female-bodied person you can't be quick to discount it based on the fact that they might not know your struggle because they're male-bodied.
|
|
